What went wrong with Alice?
Oh boy guys, this is a doozy!
So yeah, we are in headshotland and have agents, managers, friends, parents and whoever else's opinions to deal with after the shoot. I have to say that prior to being well known in NY I got a lot more calls from agents saying they didn't like this or that. Now it's a rarity, but it still happens. These calls or emails used to bug the crap out of me and one like this from Alice would have normally ruined my day or possibly my entire week. However, that's not the case for me anymore, as long as I believe in the work I did and know I captured my aesthetic in the shots, I really have nothing to be upset about. I can't let someone else's opinion of my work ruin my day. How the heck do I know how they formed their own idea of what a good headshot is or isn't? My only concern has to be for my client who shelled out $1100 and $250 for makeup to be told the shots are unusable. Wowzer!
So I have a clause that states that they can come back and we can attempt to capture whatever they thought was missed for $200, but women would still have to pay my makeup artist $175 to get the same quality in the reshoot. Now, it's hard for me to stomach charging these people when it's their agent that has the issue. I really just feel that it's a shame that these shots won't hit the streets. That's the travesty, I know they smoke whatever else that agent is sending out and her career could fly with them. That doesn't matter though, hit a brick wall with the agent and because of that they may not see the light of day. So what do I do?
First of all it's Alice we are talking about here. Sweet, gorgeous, talented and I couldn't get enough of her in front of my camera. So charging her isn't an option for me. I may talk a big game, but it's customer service and I can't leave my clients hung out to dry. Problem is when she comes back, what the heck am I going to do with her? I have no idea. I did everything to get range out of the shots in the first place. Not to mention I had trouble keeping my finger off the shutter with Alice. I usually start to wrap up my sessions when I get over 100 keepers, so my cleints end up with 130 or so shots. Not Alice, she ended up with 296 shots! Still the agent couldn't find one that was usable. So how do I make this agent happy. I don't know, but I do know that I don't want to shoot any of her clients ever again, that's for sure.
Alice called after the email and I told her I'd be happy to shoot more, but I just don't know what I would do. I also told her that I felt it's a shame that the magic we captured that day may never be seen and that really is the thing that kills me. If I see Alice again I'll let you guys know, for now check out the email I received from her telling me the news and also a link to her gallery to see for yourself what went wrong with Alice. To be continued.........
alice
35 Comments
Wooooooooowwwwwwwww. Since I deal with a high volume of clients I run into this a few times a month. It sucks. You give them a killer KILLER product...and someone else tells them that NONE of them are unusable. I have no idea what you're going to do different with her.
I would think that you need to talk to the agent on the phone. There has to be some miscommunication going on. That's the only thing I can suggest.
This is very frustrating but I don't know any way around it. Now you have to play therapist to her as well as her agent.
Good luck...keep us posted.
Delane
Hi Peter,
The headshots look great to me. Just wondering...any chance that you could have a conference call with Alice Lee and her agent? It might help you get a better line on what the agent's view of a headshot for her is? Just a suggestion...realize this might be difficult...but a learning experience??
FWIW
Gus
If it were me, I'd ask the agent for a meeting to discuss exactly what she's looking for, get her to show me some headshots that she considers killer. Alice is caught in the middle but the agent holds the keys to her future. But it is not me, it's Peter Hurley so if I were you and had your clout I'd be telling Alice to get another agent or at least take the best of the best shots and shop them around to other agents ... preferably ones that aren't on drugs.
I would love to see what the agent is looking for. I am no agent, but there were a lot of great shots that would sell Alice really well. Maybe I need to take advantage of the new Colorado laws to understand better.
I had the same thoughts as the folks above me. I'd like to know what this agent had in mind.
I think you should tell your clients to have the agent pay for the reshoot. I've always believed that an agent works for an actor, and not the other way around. I send my agent my shot and say, this is the one I want to use. I don't even have any discussion on it. It's my look to be presented, not the agent's. Calling this agent to find out what's wrong with 280 plus perfectly good shots is ridiculous. More often than not, there is no pleasing agents, so I don't like to give them a choice. It just confuses them.
If I were Alice, I would say, "Here are the shots I like, do your job!" Sorry, but I can't find ONE thing wrong with this shoot and she ROCKED IT! Hopefully, if she loves them, she won't be afraid to take a stand.
Thanks for the feedback guys! I've seen many agents come and go in this business and I'm not in it to please one. In my opinion this one doesn't have an eye for what a good headshot is and it's not my place to convince them. That said the last thing I would do is reach out to them. I'm not saying you guys should do the same, I'm at a point in my career where I've handled all the punches already and can tell agents that I'm not for them. By all means don't do that if you need clientele walking in your door. I bent over backwards for agents in the past and am just in a place where I choose to say no to clients. It's a nice place to be and I'm sure Alice can handle it in her own way, like my other clients have in the past. Too many stories about clients listening to agents, not using my shots, getting new shots, not working, leaving agent, going back and using my shots, working again, etc, etc, etc.
I am JUST going through that this AM... Unbelievable that you should post this now. I have a letter which I send out with every link and i tell people explicitly to show EVERYONE involved in the decision making process from their dog to their manager... before I go to finish (I do my own finishing as I don't have clients rich enough yet to pay someone else.) So this model gets back to me with her 7 selects, and I finish them, assuming she has cleared it with everyone. This morning, her agents got the shots she chose, just the 7, not the link with the 110, and they have a problem with them. I am so glad to hear that someone of your stature and talent can face the same ting... after all we try to minimize the nit picking... but at the end of the day... isn't that all part of it? Cheers and thanks for the pep talk!!
An abundance of classic Hurley winners here. If you can't please an agent with this kind of work, you need to blackball her—and by proxy—her clients. What a shame.
Maybe for clients that are represented need to make sure their agent knows who they want to shoot with before they book? The work is solid, so it's the style he/she must have a beef with. No way around it.
Peter, she's got everything from the girl next door to James Bond in those shots. I'm with the prevailing attitude about contacting the agent but I see your point. The only thing I'd be absolutely sure about is not putting Alice in the middle. If you think she can handle the circumstances then I think you've exceeded all expectations artistically and professionally.There are, unfortunately, customers (read agents) who cannot be pleased.
Hi Peter, you did your SHABANG, congratulations! I think her agent never saw the asian ayes. She has a beautiful eyes. It is hard to take a really good picture of kind of eyes if you don't have a good experience. I went quickly through the thumbnails, I could get 20 very good images you easy. Talk to her agent and educate her; or send alice to another agent if it is appropriate. Thanks you are sharing with us.
Pete, managers know what they should expect before calling. Your proofs were on point. I like 193 & 194 (red top).
I know exactly what you mean. The agent for the actress who plays the ME on Blue Bloods, called me to do headshots. She did not want Jen too far to the left or right. I shot atleast 100 keepers just to be told nothing was good enough. I chalked it up as a learning experience and moved on.
STAY MOTIVATED!!!!
I hate this, when people don't get it and it always brings along with it a shred of doubt in abilities, but it's all about how confident you are in your work, and obviously you have nothing to worry about. Right in my about me page I have a section that says "I can do an extraordinary job. Not for everyone; but for the people I want to work with, and who want to work with me. I have a strong belief that the best creative work can only be achieved when both the client and artist can be excited about what’s being created and are eager to put their name behind the final product. My style isn’t for everyone just as other’s may not be for me, and that’s a great thing but very important to understand."
This has helped me in turning down a couple clients that I knew weren't going to be happy with my style vs what they wanted, without creating any sort of conflict.
I suspect agent had some mysterious agenda that was just not communicated. Alice clearly nailed it. My favourite series are the ones with the red top which completely kick@ss.
I deal with a lot of very young kids just getting started. Most are 17 year old girls with no world experience.
It is not uncommon here in AZ for the "agent" to have a relationship with a photog or even and "in house" photographer for which they charge $2000 or more. And the agent pockets half or more of the photography fees. That is usually someone just preying on the dreams of some kid. Eventually the talent sees the agent is a fraudster and move on to professional representation, or more often, give up and move on with their lives.
The times I've seen this I have just told the kid to get in writing from the agent where the fees go. The other thing I advise is to get a referral list from the agent of locally well known actors who have had success with this representation, or even one job.. Ugly business. . ..This kind of predatory scam representation is likely all over the country.
Edward that's tough to hear... you would hope we would be further along than that but I guess there are scumbags everywhere.
Peter this is some of your best work. Period.
Edward Wilson... here in Dallas, I always tell the young kids if the agent says you need new headshots because the light is bad across your face or your eyes are in shadow, or some legit reason, and the agent says "Go get them redone," that's fine. But if the agent says, "You need new headshots. Here's a list of photographers to pick from," then it's time to run away.
Interesting read. I had learned that when I went to the Shoot The Centerfold seminar, the model is really what makes her marketable. I think that is probably what the agency was looking for. Marketability. Even though the images you have shot may have been top notch and tons of keepers. They could have something specific in mind who knows. Some agencies don't know exactly what they are looking for. The same for casting directors. Sometimes they don't know who to cast for the role. I have been both an Actor and Model for years and I have seen that side of the fence for a long time. Before I became a Photographer, I was directing and producing model search pageants and served as a judge for regional pageants. We try to find a talent that stands out that sets apart from the rest and that can be very challenging. My good friend Arny Freytag from Playboy said Shoot images for a day and find that one image the stood out the most and not worry about 100 other photos. If you have that photo that is marketable then you have succeeded! Peter, I saw your video in my class when one of our students was doing a presentation and your work is fantastic! Thanks for sharing!
Rather than questioning the agent's motives, I could accept that she just doesn't like your style or feel it is suitable for her client. Work that pleases all is usually bland and as we're working towards bringing our individual character to our headshots, they can't appeal to everyone anymore than however pleasant you may try to be, not everyone you meet will like you. The Hurley look is very successful but as with all art, the more people love it, the more others will loathe it - incredibly I've met landscape photographers who don't rate Ansel Adams' Yosemite shots. The agent is entitled to her view, but you can be happy that your work is prized by the people whose opinions you value most!
Dave, you have said it so eloquently well! :)
I think it could just be the agent may not want her to look different than the other headshots they are distributing, even though it's a superior product. Some times people get complacent with the product they are receiving and get in a comfortable state, having one talent "look" different (and much better) may be a tough pill to swallow for the agent to explain to their other talent. Don't sweat it Peter, you killed it.
Rube.
Amazing story so thank you for sharing Peter. It's actually a good thing to see that this still happens, even to you.
Please keep us up to date as things develop or when a resolution is met. I'm curious.
Nothing wrong with the shots at all. Blame lies with the agent.
I just got this feedback on some head shots I just completed from another "agent" and I laughed:
"If I HAD to choose from them it would be the last one - if there were other options, none of them. If she's using it for a headshot as a hairstylist they're bland and I wouldn't want my hair to look like hers, from an agency pov they're not striking (I used to rep 72 union performers and 3 photographers) - they're cute but meh - i come from a very competitive and blunt background so excuse the breakdown language. If she were my client I'd send her back with more color and more vibrancy to give you something to work with.
This came from one person. The other SIXTY people I showed thought the pics were stellar.
So, you can't please everyone... :-)
I think the shot no. 005 is the best
her eyes are so dark. its harder to have something to connect with when you cant see her pupil within her eye. she really starts nailin it in the red dress and the pattern strapped shirt. idk what else you could really do. you did all you could do get her personality into those pictures..and there isnt anything more you can do at that point. its on them and their look and personality to captivate you.
Barely related to the Client/Agent part of this situation....It's great to have access to the complete package that the client receives.
I would question if even agent knows what she wants.
So it's April now, what ended up happening with this situation? Also what do you do if the second shoot also finds the agent being picky and disagreeable? Is there a refund process? In your case as you mentioned you're in a position where you most likely do not give refunds since you will have a steady flow of clients. As novices how should we handle a similar situation? I'm guessing not to give a refund since the agent may not be happy with the product and is not likely to come back anyway. Thanks for sharing...
Peter, did the agent give any constructive feedback? Id love to hear what they said.
stephanie
Obviously the agent dosent know what she wants, or has bad taste. Either of those, actually... maybe both!
2 cents, The agent isn't able to book her for one reason or another and is deflecting the issue on to her headshot. I took a quick scan of those shots and saw lots of great great shots in there.
You were able to achieve your aesthetic multiple times during that shoot. If that's not what she needs then her agent needs to be way more specific then: "these won't work".
Hey guys! I shot her again only because I loved working with her and she decided to come into an intensive. She did print stuff from the first shoot I believe, but I haven't gotten an update for her. The whole point of this is to know that even if you think you hit it out of the park it's totally subjective and anyone can squash a shooting with one simple comment. You have to remain true to your work and believe firmly in it. I've never given a refund in the course of my career, but if I feel I missed a beat then I have no problem reshooting. In most cases they have to have a pretty darn good excuse for me to do that. It's $200 for them to come back and do another look or 2 for 30 days after the original shoot. I guess I should check in with Alice and get her take on it now.
Thanks for the update Peter.
We just went through a rather difficult process with a client but we've learned the lesson that it doesn't have to be our favorite image to meet their need. The client did not want a makeup artist (no matter how hard I tried to insist that she use one). She wasn't happy with the 1st round of finished images because her makeup worked against her skin tone in the bright lights. Tim did an abundance of editing in CS6 to make it work so that she was finally OK with the 3rd round of edited images but it's a lesson we've taken note of and will handle differently in the future.
Here is my opinion as to why they are "unusable" headshots. It is simply the clothing choices. Layers and colors are key. She looks naked in the first shots, and after that there a lot of spaghetti strap stuff. She is showing a lot of skin. The high collar and no sleeves tops are not the best choice because the balance is off. The white background may have been an issue in this case as well. Maybe a different color background would've softened things a bit. However, the actual photographs are great.
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